tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14752420.post113750930859345123..comments2023-08-20T01:16:36.709-07:00Comments on Decompose: Religious FettucciniMike Duranhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02223354088258809968noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14752420.post-1137771985501671172006-01-20T07:46:00.000-08:002006-01-20T07:46:00.000-08:00Wonderful presentation, Pete. And just so you know...Wonderful presentation, Pete. And just so you know, I'll pull the plug if I feel our conversation is uncivil or mean. But it's not. This is the spirit of dialogue I think is necessary and needed in the Body.<BR/><BR/>I'm extremely concerned about the "slippery slope" here. You said: <I>If a math book tells me on page 5 that 2 + 2 = 3 then I don't discount the theory of mathematics as a result. Same with scripture.</I> But what if every other answer in the math book is wrong? Or one-third of the answers? At some point, <B>the factual inaccuracies in the book would undermine the entire book</B>. Yes, the theory of math might remain intact, but that book should be trashed. Here's the kicker, Pete. <B>The "theory" of theology is rooted in the Scripture. So to undermine Scripture (the Book) is to call into question our entire theology</B>.<BR/><BR/>Your concern about faith is something I need to hear -- and I appreciate your point. I have a tendency to want to walk by <I>sight</I>, not by <I>faith</I>. And I think that's your point. An overemphasis upon facts, sterilizes faith. I've always looked at the Christian journey like a plane flight. No matter how safe an airline or plane may appear, you still must exercize faith to fly. Faith that the mechanics did their job. Faith that the pilot knows what he's doing. Faith in God that freak storms and lightening won't strike. <I>Facts about the plane and the pilot, do not eliminate the need for faith</I>. That's the same way I approach this issue. Facts about Christ and Scripture are essential (I need to know the vehicle I'm getting in is trustworthy). These facts help me board the Christian Church. But I still need to get in, trust the Pilot, go where He wants to take me, navigate the storms and learn to get along with the other passengers w/out trying to parachute out. So, I really do see that as a both/and situation -- we need facts AND faith.<BR/><BR/>Thanks again Pedro for taking the time to dialogue and maintaining a positive spirit. May we both trust the Pilot and find our way safely Home...Mike Duranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02223354088258809968noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14752420.post-1137762630072123292006-01-20T05:10:00.000-08:002006-01-20T05:10:00.000-08:00Norman Geisler has a book titled "I Don't Have Eno...Norman Geisler has a book titled "I Don't Have Enough Faith to be an Atheist" that I would recommend highly.<BR/><BR/>Great comments and discussion. I'm going to print it and give it to my son. He's teaching apologetics to the youth group.<BR/><BR/>And he pretty much thinks fettuccini is great stuff, so I think it will be right up his alley.Scrambled Dregshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07301466354814432689noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14752420.post-1137736602764302952006-01-19T21:56:00.000-08:002006-01-19T21:56:00.000-08:00I love this, and the discussion. If nothing else,...I love this, and the discussion. If nothing else, it shows the width and breadth of God, don't you think? That God, without adapting, without altering who He is or His character ever . . . our un-changing God, is able to so specifically relate to all of those whom He created? <BR/><BR/>The combination is always needed. Perhaps the difference is in the personality . . . the more intellectual need more factual evidence; the more passionate need more touchy-feely evidence. And in the end, God is able to, and does, (Rom 1) reveal Himself to all men despite man. <BR/><BR/>I love that about God. No two finger prints or eye prints or anything else about who we are have ever been the same in all of the history of mankind. We have more medical specialists who still will never completely master their specialty because God made us so complex. And that same God knows the way to our hearts. <BR/><BR/>For one it may be through much intellectual study . . . and in the end the intellect touches the heart and the two become one and the eyes can see and the ears can hear.<BR/><BR/>For another it may be through touch: time over coffee; an unexpected meal; sitting next to one while waiting for a loved one in surgery; kneeling next to one as they weep over their child laying in the coffin; the time taken to willingly offer friendship over a long period of time. The touch through the heart is backed up with the intellect and the two become one and eyes can see and ears can hear.<BR/><BR/>A woman who touched the edge of His robe in a crowd. A blind man on the side of the road. A man hunkering in a tree. A woman tending to the needs of drawing water from a well. An enormous crowd of hungry families. And the intellect and the heart meet, become one, and eyes can see and ears can hear. <BR/><BR/>And as different as a finger print, God is able to, and does, blend the two and so intimately touches each person in ways so specific just to them. That is so cool :) That is SO God :) And only the Creator of All could so intimately touch All.Amehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14358641966141610513noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14752420.post-1137730025113149762006-01-19T20:07:00.000-08:002006-01-19T20:07:00.000-08:00Thanks Mike, I'll look these over. But I think one...Thanks Mike, I'll look these over. But I think one key issue here is the difference in how we relate. Though my beliefs are based on facts, I relate to my faith emotionally. Hubby relates to things intellectually. It's a struggle for me to express what I know without the emotional side, goes agaist my character, but that emotional aspect seems to be what casts doubt for him. <BR/><BR/>And I agree with you, both are needed--faith and facts. And peace is found in knowing that, ultimately, God is the one who brings them together for special people like my hubby.Dineen A. Millerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08560463944362266736noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14752420.post-1137712734472274692006-01-19T15:18:00.000-08:002006-01-19T15:18:00.000-08:00Hey, I love these types of discussions, P! It appe...Hey, I love these types of discussions, P! It appears you've thought through this stuff. I whole-heartedly agree, we could "walk into a jungle with no Bible, tell the Christ story and the first two commandments," and come back and see growing pygmies (pun intended). But it's a catch twenty-two because "the Christ story and the first two commandments" are found in Scripture. It's the whole balance between, general and special revelation (see Romans 1-3). In the "general" sense, God's Spirit speaks to everyone, including pygmies. No Bible is required because the law is written on our hearts. But, God didn't leave us there. He gave us "special," specific revelation, of Himself and His laws. <BR/><BR/>Here's a case where "special revelation" was employed: Acts 18:26 "and he [Apollos] began to speak out boldly in the synagogue. But when Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they took him aside and explained to him the way of God more accurately." Was God with Apollos? It appears. Did he need some specific direction / correction? Yes. So that's my point, Pedrique. While the pygmies, can be saved and grown by God, part of that saving / growing is the bringing of special revelation, clarity. And this is where we bump into the neccesity for facts.<BR/><BR/>Peace, Mr. P. Fight the good fight!Mike Duranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02223354088258809968noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14752420.post-1137702274763222152006-01-19T12:24:00.000-08:002006-01-19T12:24:00.000-08:00Hey Pete, I appreciate you taking time to comment ...Hey Pete, I appreciate you taking time to comment here. I don't think this is an either/or but a both/and issue. In other words, it's not facts OR faith, it's facts AND faith. Faith saves, not facts. But real faith is founded on facts. If it's not, then it's blind faith.<BR/><BR/>I like how Blaise Pascal put it in <I>Pensees</I>. He said, God's given us enough evidence that we can confidently trust Him. But He hasn't given us so much that faith is irrelevant. I like to think of it in terms of a marriage. Most marriages (at least, good marriages), are built upon a combination of faith and fact. We learn enough about a person to believe we can trust them and surrender our lives to them. Nevertheless, we are not robots and the future is uncertain. So faith is required. Likewise, I know enough about God to know I can trust Him. But I'm not a robot and life is terribly difficult, so I still need faith to follow.<BR/><BR/>I think you're absolutely right that people are won to Christ by love, not facts. Nevertheless, without facts you cannot know what type of Christ to win them to. The Bible says there's many "false Christs." Well then, how do we know when we're presenting the "true Christ"? It can't be our feelings because people's feelings about Christ are terribly different. The true Christ was a historic figure, Who made specific claims and performed specific acts. See my point? We need both facts and faith. If we cannot establish the authenticity of Scripture then we have no point of reference to lead anyone to Christ, nor any real reason to.<BR/><BR/>I appreciate your comments, Pete (or is it Pedrique). Keep the fire burnin', bro.Mike Duranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02223354088258809968noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14752420.post-1137681836306656602006-01-19T06:43:00.000-08:002006-01-19T06:43:00.000-08:00Great apologetics lesson Mike. Makes me want to cr...Great apologetics lesson Mike. Makes me want to crack open my Ravi Zacharias books. It's good to be on the side of truth. Imagine how frustrating it would be to be arguing a lie.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16151988844185350316noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14752420.post-1137677180653651052006-01-19T05:26:00.000-08:002006-01-19T05:26:00.000-08:00Hey Dineen, thanks for stopping by and asking the ...Hey Dineen, thanks for stopping by and asking the great question about the Bible's authenticity. As I see it, not nearly enough Christians ask questions about this vital subject -- we just take for granted that our pastor believes it, and that's that. <BR/><BR/>Something to remember when discussing this subject is that it's very technical. So, from my perspective, it's better for the average person to understand general principles and have quoatable sources, than try to pretend to be an expert. First, it has to do with how any historic manuscript is tested for authenticity, whether it's Plato or Shakespeare. Does the Bible pass these tests? Second, it has to do with the actual documents themselves -- how many are there? how reliable are they? do they substantiate or contradict existing manuscripts? etc. For instance, the Dead Sea scrolls was a great discovery because it validated huge sections of the Old Testament, confirming what scholars already believed and increasing the wealth of evidence.<BR/><BR/>Okay. There are many sources of information, so I'll just ramble some. One of the best, classic works is Josh McDowell's, <I>Evidence That Demands a Verdict</I>. It's presented in collegiate format and is very thorough. If you just Google, <I>Bible documents reliability</I>, you'll get lotsa links, from simplistic to technical. You could try <A HREF="http://www.iamnext.com/spirituality/NTrely.html" REL="nofollow">this one</A> and <A HREF="http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/bib-docu.html" REL="nofollow">this one</A> and <A HREF="http://www.equip.org/free/DB011.htm" REL="nofollow">this one</A>. (Hopefully, all these links work. If not, Google it.)<BR/><BR/>It's important to remember that most people who dispute the Bible, do so because of its message rather than the facts surrounding its authenticity. In other words, it's easy to just dispute it, than face the implication of surrendering one's life to Christ. In scholarly circles, the Bible's authenticity is accepted -- it's the message that people choke on. And the next time your beloved husband disputes these facts, you might just ask him some simple questions like, <I>Do you know the standard tests for textual authenticity</I> or <I>Exactly how many New Testament documents do you think we have?</I> Of course, do it in love...Mike Duranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02223354088258809968noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14752420.post-1137647480583565902006-01-18T21:11:00.000-08:002006-01-18T21:11:00.000-08:00Oh, just to share. The last time Jehovah witnesses...Oh, just to share. The last time Jehovah witnesses came to my door, I told them I was one of the 99, and that they needed to go find the one lost sheep. (No, I don't believe Jehovah's Witnesses are on the right track but I have seen God use them to bring people to him.) They argued with me. Again, I told them, "You're wasting your time. If we share the same belief, why are you here?" One kept nodding her head (what was that about?) and the other stood there sputtering at me. They haven't come back since...Dineen A. Millerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08560463944362266736noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14752420.post-1137647223491020572006-01-18T21:07:00.000-08:002006-01-18T21:07:00.000-08:00The Bible is the most authentic ancient historic m...<I>The Bible is the most authentic ancient historic manuscript in the world. We have far more archeological evidence of the Bible's factuality than any other historic document.</I><BR/><BR/>Mike, what do you base this statement upon? I believe it to be true. What I've read, which isn't much, confirms it, but I've made this statement to an atheist (i.e. husband), and he said it wasn't true. I need hard facts to communicate. (But please don't think I'm out to convince him--not my job. I just want to sound intelligent.) Like you, he believes in facts, not feelings. Which is good since faith is based on fact, not feelings, or should be. However, I find it so frustrating when the anti-Bible "intellectuals" place their theories out there, and they're taken as fact. How does one combat that?Dineen A. Millerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08560463944362266736noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14752420.post-1137642667946534222006-01-18T19:51:00.000-08:002006-01-18T19:51:00.000-08:00Man I really like the way your brain works. Now, a...Man I really like the way your brain works. <BR/><BR/>Now, about that fettuccini...does it have chicken in it? If so, my bosom will burn, baby burn!michael snyderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04928294752314542520noreply@blogger.com